I have a lot of trouble visualizing what I read in medical books, even
when there are pictures. I think I need to actually observe dissections
of cadavers and operations of various types. I am inclined to think
that these are not normally open to the public and would be interested
in knowing ways to be admitted to them. Another alternative would be
to obtain videotapes of these events. Although I don’t really
consider that the equal of being there, it does have the advantage that
I can play a videotape as many times as I like.
One reason to prefer operations over dissections is that I doubt that
a routine dissection examines everything and if there is some part of the
body that I am particularly interested in I can’t ask that to be specially
dissected, whereas observing an operation on that part of the body would
let me see what I want to see. But the individual being operated on
might have some objections, unlike cadavers, and that might make observing
operations more difficult that observing dissections.
Allan Adler
a…@zohar.ai.mit.edu
In article <ARA.91Jul25021…@zohar.ai.mit.edu> a…@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler) writes:
>I have a lot of trouble visualizing what I read in medical books, even
>when there are pictures. I think I need to actually observe dissections
>of cadavers and operations of various types. I am inclined to think
>that these are not normally open to the public and would be interested
>in knowing ways to be admitted to them.
You could always register as a special student at MIT or Harvard
(or Tufts or BU, or…) in their medical program and take an
anatomy course. That should probably satisfy your curiosity for
a long time.
–
Steve Dyer
d…@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
d…@arktouros.mit.edu
In article <ARA.91Jul25021…@zohar.ai.mit.edu> a…@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler) writes:
>I have a lot of trouble visualizing what I read in medical books, even
>when there are pictures. I think I need to actually observe dissections
>of cadavers and operations of various types. I am inclined to think
>that these are not normally open to the public and would be interested
>in knowing ways to be admitted to them. Another alternative would be
>to obtain videotapes of these events. Although I don’t really
>consider that the equal of being there, it does have the advantage that
>I can play a videotape as many times as I like.
Both dissecting and operating on the human body is a privilege that
is largely reserved for members of the medical profession and other
health-related professions. Similarly for observing surgery. There are
some medical museums, such as the Welcome in London where specimens
are available to non-medical personnel on application. There are
some rare dissected cadavers that are available openly to public
view. One is in the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.
One problem is that there are disturbed persons who obtain sexual
gratification from such things and have compulsions to not only
observe, but to do their own dissections. Opening up dissections
and operating theaters would provide them with their form of
pornography. I don’t know whether this would promote or prevent
more of them from taking the course of the young man in Milwaukee
who was just captured, but it’s a bit scary to contemplate.
Anyhow, unless you go to medical school or graduate school in
anatomy, don’t expect your requests to be looked upon favorably.
–
—————————————————————————-
Gordon Banks N3JXP | "It ain’t what you don’t know.
g…@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu | It’s what you know that ain’t so"
—————————————————————————-
In article <11…@pitt.UUCP> g…@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
>Both dissecting and operating on the human body is a privilege that
>is largely reserved for members of the medical profession and other
>health-related professions.
>…
>Anyhow, unless you go to medical school or graduate school in
>anatomy, don’t expect your requests to be looked upon favorably.
"largely" – perhaps. But I know of cases where graduate students in
such fields as anthropology, undergraduates, and even "special students"
not enrolled in any particular degree program can, and have, taken
courses in gross anatomy, including dissections.
Besides…first year med students (when gross is virtually universally
experienced) are hardly "members of the medical profession". A case can
be made that the lessons learned in the course of a human dissection
(far beyond the more obvious lessons of where things are, and general
principles of anatomy) are an important part of the indoctrination of
med students. [Those who have taught gross will know what I mean - some
of those who have merely taken the course may not]. These same lessons
can be useful to others, as well.
Merely "observing" is, of course, different. I doubt that any school will
allow you to "audit" gross (although some places have so many students
at each station that it SEEMS as if the students are merely auditing the
course).
"Operating" is, one hopes, fairly strongly limited to those with
licenses.
There are many films/videos of various procedures – but watching a video
is not even close to actually performing either an operation or a
dissection. No matter HOW good the "virtual reality" system is.
In summary, I doubt that there is a video that will answer the original
poster’s needs, nor does there appear to be a way to produce one – but I
also think that it would be possible to be admitted to a course in gross
anatomy without actually being admitted to training in a "related health
profession". Not trivial mind you – but certainly doable.
–
Kenneth Sloan Computer and Information Sciences
sl…@cis.uab.edu University of Alabama at Birmingham
(205) 934-2213 115A Campbell Hall, UAB Station
(205) 934-5473 FAX Birmingham, AL 35294-1170
—–
In article <11…@pitt.UUCP> g…@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
> … Anyhow, unless you go to medical school or graduate school in
> anatomy, don’t expect your requests to be looked upon favorably.
I have been fortunate to have the opportunity to view various
surgeries, medical examinations, and dissections, and while not a
medical professional, I think this has increased my knowledge of
the human body in ways that mere reading cannot do. This
includes things as basic as the texture and physical character of
the tissues (and the mechanical implications that follow from
this), and also some facets such as surgical and medical
procedure.
The original poster’s desire seems reasonable, even commendable.
In at least this one regard, it is unfortunate that medicine has
become such a closed arena.
Russell
I doubt very much that a person not immediately concerned with an operation
would be allowed in an operating theatre in any case. It is difficult
enough to keep the theatres as near sterile as possible, increasing the
number of observers for no other reason than to satisfy curiosity is just
adding to the problems of controlling bacteria/viruses/fungi. Not to mention
that it is often rather crowded around the area of activity, an observer
would only get in the way – distracting the staff and maybe create more
tension just by being there.
If I was a patient, I would not allow such an observer, I would rather the
surgeon/s concentrate on me and not someone else thank-you very much….
In article <ARA.91Jul25021…@zohar.ai.mit.edu> a…@zurich.ai.mit.edu writes:
>I want to watch some surgery
I dreampt a couple of months ago that i needed surgery, and that i was nervous
about it and wanted to watch him operate on another patient with the same
diagnosis and treatment plan.
He said that that happened a lot; he said he would allow me to if i signed a
paper promising that if i had the surgery from him or anyone else that i had to
agree to let up to three people watch MY operation.
Sounds fair to me.
-dk
a…@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler) writes:
>I have a lot of trouble visualizing what I read in medical books, even
>when there are pictures. I think I need to actually observe dissections
>of cadavers and operations of various types. I am inclined to think
>that these are not normally open to the public and would be interested
>in knowing ways to be admitted to them. Another alternative would be
>to obtain videotapes of these events. Although I don’t really
>consider that the equal of being there, it does have the advantage that
>I can play a videotape as many times as I like.
Many medical schools have videotape libraries, and if you have access
to the university’s library system, chances are you have access to
the medical library and its videos.
I read up on tropical medicine in the Univ. of Arizona’s medical library
before doing fieldwork in Africa, watching a lot of their narrated
slide shows and taped lectures. When I wanted a break, I’d watch
a tape of an appendectomy or open heart surgery. They had a room
full of private TV/VCR/headphone sets.
A few years later I got a broken nose, and I watched every tape they
had of septoplasty and rhinoplasty before I went under the knife.
————————————————————————-
Glenn Stone BITNET: stone@cunixc
Columbia University INTERNET: st…@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
————————————————————————-
RT>From: tur…@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin)
RT>I have been fortunate to have the opportunity to view various
RT>surgeries, medical examinations, and dissections, and while not a
RT>medical professional, I think this has increased my knowledge of
RT>the human body in ways that mere reading cannot do. This
RT>includes things as basic as the texture and physical character of
RT>the tissues (and the mechanical implications that follow from
RT>this), and also some facets such as surgical and medical
RT>procedure.
RT>The original poster’s desire seems reasonable, even commendable.
RT>In at least this one regard, it is unfortunate that medicine has
RT>become such a closed arena.
There are good and sufficient reasons for this restriction. First and foremost
is patient privacy (surgical). Secondly – surgery is a team effort requiring
utmost attention to details. Having an "outsider" (even medical) in the room
tends to distract the operating room personnel including the surgeon.
Personnel are too busy paying attention to the needs of the case to have to
concentrate on a lay person, who through ignorance of procedure, can
inadvertantly stray into a "clean zone" or contaminate an area or drape.
Additionally, many lay people, regardless of motivation often are not prepared
for the pyschophysiological shock of seeing a human body opened (or the odor)
and faint or get sick thus creating problems – sometimes serious ones. I saw
one such person faint and then convulse. As a matter of fact, even an
experienced person can experience difficulty when they encounter something
outside that experience. I had a cardiac surgery nurse faint dead away during
her first exposure to simple eye surgery.
The banter that goes on during surgery is very "inside" and dispells tension
but is often misinterpreted by a lay person. I often give demonstrations and
surgical courses to physicians – never to lay people. I want my team full up –
non-professionals bring the team down.
Leo Bores, M.D.
–
Uucp: …{gatech,ames,rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!15.25!Leo.Bores
Internet: Leo.Bo…@p25.f15.n114.z1.fidonet.org
In article <9107291540.AA00…@drums.reasoning.com> k…@REASONING.COM writes:
]
]I dreampt a couple of months ago that i needed surgery, and [the doc said i
]could watch another patient if i let other people watch me]
]
]Sounds fair to me.
]
]
]-dk
I hope i made it clear enough that this was a DREAM and a PROPOSAL, not a
reality.
-dk
I lost my pointer to the original requestor, but s/he might want to buy
a copy of Clemente’s book, "A Regional Atlas of the Human Body". Each
section is gone through as in a dissection, and the pictures gave me an
excellent idea of how things were put together. (No, I don’t plan to
operate from the book … ;@) It helped me understand, for instance,
why postions that stretched certain leg muscles caused my pes anserine
bursitis to flare up. It’s not as dramatic as a videotape, of course,
but it’s useful to be able to study a frame as long as you like.
Andrea Frankel, Hewlett Packard, San Diego Technical Graphics Div., R&D Lab
"wake now! Discover that you are the song that the morning brings…"
______________________________________________________________________________
Internet : and…@sdd.hp.com (or andrea%hp-…@nosc.mil or @ucsd.edu)
UUCP : {hplabs|nosc|hpfcla|ucsd}!hp-sdd!andrea
CSNET : andrea%hp-…@hplabs.csnet
USnail : 16399 W. Bernardo Drive – Mailstop 61U65, San Diego CA 92127-1899
Voice : (619) 592-4664
>"gross" is the whole point. We lost 20 people the first day. It’s done on
>purpose.
To what end exactly? I can see that somebody who faints at the sight of blood
will not make a good surgeon, but surely exposing people to the detail more
gently may allow some of the above 20 to come to terms with what they
experience and possibly become good doctors. I suspect that there is an
element of machismo in the teacher (the introductory shots to a popular
television series [Quincy I think] covering pathology certainly suggest
this).
What is it that so upsets people about prurience? It is a very common
human condition. I am often suprised at the righteous indignation shown
by journalists when the public are accused of ghoulish behaviour when they
are interested to see some accident. What is really upsetting these people?
I would be very interested in an objective view as I love to understand the
real feeling behind cant.
Peter Brooks